tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post3624343367571584332..comments2023-08-12T08:41:01.080+01:00Comments on Green Bristol Blog: The Ice Man ComethChris Hutthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01532451004057748734noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-51796036267210714972010-01-17T12:56:48.416+00:002010-01-17T12:56:48.416+00:00Hi
Thanks bristle. You are however relying on the...Hi<br /><br />Thanks bristle. You are however relying on the council being correct (the map last being updated in 2007 http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/default.aspx) . After a quick canvas on the way to the school no one else has ever seen one empty or otherwise.<br /><br />Since my post though A shiny new grit bin has appeared at the ramp to the cycle path and was promptly emptied by local residents trying to get it to streets that needed it.<br /><br />It also seems that the Residents of Easton are not alone <br />http://bristle.wordpress.com/2010/01/08/snow-job-in-st-pauls-council-abandons-inner-city-bristol-again/<br /><br />As the snow has now gone it is now a mute point and will probably stay one until next year.<br /><br />Cheers.Jhttp://www.worldofsoil.co.uk/blogger/wordpressnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-39856702904401678392010-01-11T11:56:02.449+00:002010-01-11T11:56:02.449+00:00OK, so it has ended up in a FoIA request which yo...OK, so it has ended up in a FoIA request which you can watch at http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/public_use_of_grit_bins<br /><br />You might also like this one asking BCC for their advice http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/gritting or this one asking Lewisham for their even more scared stance of refusing to provide grit bins http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/details_of_advice_given_to_councMJ Rayhttp://mjr.towers.org.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-32377869219767737872010-01-11T11:35:54.138+00:002010-01-11T11:35:54.138+00:00@Harry T: the more relevant quote from later in th...@Harry T: the more relevant quote from later in the same debate is "if people completely, utterly and totally clear away all the snow and return the pavement to the condition it was in before the snow landed, they will have done an excellent job. I am sure that all conscientious citizens do that. That is why any cases brought against householders in such circumstances are very few and far between. I merely reflected that if the snow is cleared in a less than complete manner and ice is left which is more dangerous than the original covering of snow, it may not necessarily be the local authority that is responsible but the householder for having dealt with the matter inadequately."<br /><br />While the Lords is not itself definitive, I would expect any member who misled the House to correct it later, which doesn't seem to have happened for that.<br /><br />So, the law is probably as explained, and there are some cases, although few.<br /><br />Beyond that, I'm following up our officer's (not "a friend's friend") information, to verify whether there is a case or a rumour at the bottom of it, but it looks like it might take a FoIA request to get details, so about a month.MJ Rayhttp://mjr.towers.org.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-15443731392875145422010-01-11T11:23:55.709+00:002010-01-11T11:23:55.709+00:00On the point of SITA staff being used for gritting...On the point of SITA staff being used for gritting-<br />They are . In fact the overnight gritting is done by SITA drivers and a lot of the other crews are redeployed as well.<br />Attende "snow meeting" this morning(daily event at the moment)with reps from all depts feeding in on position and actions.<br />There are constraints on some further actions<br /> Salt/grit Some supplies in hand but some prudently ordered in advance not delivered. (national government now involved.)<br />The can do flexible attitude is patchy with our organisation but is improving its spread.Emergencies certainly sort out the wheat from the chaff.<br />Some potential preparations would not have been proportionate.<br />As an example officers relate a tale from 20+years ago when after a hard winter snow blowing machines were bought. Guess what they never got used.<br /><br />Much more to say later on community mobilisation.Gary Hopkinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-13070700524629871812010-01-10T19:05:49.721+00:002010-01-10T19:05:49.721+00:00And it's not the case that Clifton has a lot o...And it's not the case that Clifton has a lot of grit bins. A few near Queens Road, a few near Blackboy Hill and a couple near the Bowns, but absolutely nothing between those areas, even on roads with a fair gradient.Chris Hutthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532451004057748734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-38847670658847031562010-01-10T18:02:58.649+00:002010-01-10T18:02:58.649+00:00J:
The council grit bin map suggests there are 11...J:<br /><br />The <a href="bit.ly/brbins" rel="nofollow">council grit bin map</a> suggests there are 11 grit bins around Easton, between Whitehall Road, Gordon Road, Stapleton Road & the M32, with more in Eastville, St. George, Lawrence Hill & other neighbouring areas. Hopefully they're not all empty!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-37325305311334145582010-01-10T17:32:08.664+00:002010-01-10T17:32:08.664+00:00Hi
Well done to both of you, That is the spirit.
...Hi<br /><br />Well done to both of you, That is the spirit.<br /><br />I would love to do somthing similar and was discussing this with my two elderly neighbours the other day but unfortunatly unlike Clifton, St Andrews etc. Easton has no grit bins.<br /><br />Maybe somthing to consider.Jhttp://www.worldofsoil.co.uk/blogger/wordpress/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-80737731984317003142010-01-09T17:29:57.659+00:002010-01-09T17:29:57.659+00:00MJ Ray
I did not say so in my previous post, but ...MJ Ray<br /><br />I did not say so in my previous post, but you have grossly misquoted the House of Lords debate. A peer asking a question on Hansard appeared as the same peer giving an answer on your post ????<br /><br />Further, a Hansard debate is not a source of law. Further, it does not say what you claim it says.<br /><br />There is no civil liability attaching to individuals seeking to clear public paths. There have been no cases. I cannot prove there are none because I cannot find anything. But, I do not see in what way anyone could even be sued.<br /><br />The Council remains liable for any failure to clear the Highway. Why would anyone even bother suing a householder?<br /><br />I cannot prove my legal qualifications to you but they are far higher than a frend's friend who seems to recall something when he worked for a different council. <br /><br />Its a myth.harry Tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-76232547476428893462010-01-09T11:45:37.215+00:002010-01-09T11:45:37.215+00:00Until someone shows evidence the other way, I'...Until someone shows evidence the other way, I'm going to believe our council's officer who claims first-hand knowledge of a civil case when he was in West Somerset, rather than pseudonymous blog commenters claiming such cases don't exist.<br /><br />@matthewc - I think the Norfolk CC quote isn't perfectly clear but seems relevant: look at the question asked. It wasn't asking "if I hurt myself gritting, can I sue the council?"<br /><br />@HarryT - there's no criminal law, but there does seem to be a civil liability if you clear someone else's path. The Lords debate suggests that you have to clear the path back to its pre-snowfall state and I rarely achieve that. Surely the threshhold for liability could be relaxed somehow?MJ Rayhttp://mjr.towers.org.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-41867563819840559582010-01-08T21:29:33.863+00:002010-01-08T21:29:33.863+00:00In case anyone hasn't seen the latest on the B...In case anyone hasn't seen the latest on the Bristol Traffic blog teams of what look at SITA operatives were spotted out clearing snow and ice.<br /><br />http://bristolcars.blogspot.com/2010/01/bristol-snow-chaos-breaking-news.htmlChris Hutthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532451004057748734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-61919469701066447152010-01-08T21:07:48.117+00:002010-01-08T21:07:48.117+00:00Just saw Matthew's comment above - whilst the ...Just saw Matthew's comment above - whilst the contract revision for 2011 may offer a solution, there is possibly a matter of goodwill here - maybe the Exec member for waste services (G Hopkins?) could use his influence with SITA? If these guys get out and assist in sorting pavements they will be treated like heroes across bristol!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-46307372862456679912010-01-08T21:04:45.897+00:002010-01-08T21:04:45.897+00:00What about getting SITA operatives out to grit str...What about getting SITA operatives out to grit streets while its too dangerous to operate their waste and recycling vehicles (see BCC website)? This would keep them gainfully employed whilst other services cannot be delivered. The state of roads around the city is bad currently, particularly where hilly side roads meet main roads - e.g. side roads descending onto Gloucester Rd. This is all about the Council deploying resources flexibly during a time of crisis and ensuring that the lives of old, disabled and vulnerable residents are made as comfortable as possible in current circumstances. Apparently, the Council has asked for employees with their own 4x4 vehicles to volunteer to deliver meals on wheels and other social services, so it is not beyond the realms of positive thinking to re-deploy street operatives to assist in sorting the current problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-59786958780843378472010-01-08T20:51:18.852+00:002010-01-08T20:51:18.852+00:00Interesting item on salt/grit from LGA - http://ww...Interesting item on salt/grit from LGA - http://www.lga.gov.uk/lga/core/page.do?pageId=7192206Chris Hutthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532451004057748734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-38107413038685134632010-01-08T20:48:15.748+00:002010-01-08T20:48:15.748+00:00I'm not clear what the SITA street cleansing o...I'm not clear what the SITA street cleansing operatives are currently contracted to do in terms of gritting pavements, but I've been in touch with BCC Waste and Street Scene who have assured me that gritting is being carefully looked at in drawing up terms of the new street cleansing contract which will be going out to tender and due to come into operation in 2011.matthewcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-92213687312687299992010-01-08T20:41:46.405+00:002010-01-08T20:41:46.405+00:00MJ Ray,
I'm not sure your Norfolk County Coun...MJ Ray, <br />I'm not sure your Norfolk County Council quote is too relevant<br />"the spreading of the salt by local residents and others is carried out at their own risk." <br /><br />Surely what they are saying is you can't sue Norfolk County Council if you injure yourself whilst spreading salt, not that Norfolk County Council is going to sue you for spreading salt yourself...matthewcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-80787008024550571012010-01-08T20:40:01.084+00:002010-01-08T20:40:01.084+00:00Anonymous suggests, "The council's garden...Anonymous suggests, "<i>The council's gardeners used to grit paths, but now they are told the litigation threat means it can't be done.</i>" <br /><br />I trust this is another urban myth, but I will check. Common sense and good practice must not be prevented by unwarranted legal threats.Jon Rogershttp://www.bristol-libdems.org.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-37166846104447723812010-01-08T20:39:01.337+00:002010-01-08T20:39:01.337+00:00I'll see your 40 minutes and raise you two hou...I'll see your 40 minutes and <a href="http://bristle.wordpress.com/2010/01/08/snow-job-in-st-pauls-council-abandons-inner-city-bristol-again" rel="nofollow">raise you two hours</a>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-55057401172596841062010-01-08T20:34:26.278+00:002010-01-08T20:34:26.278+00:00The Bristol Blogger pointed out people will help, ...The Bristol Blogger pointed out people will help, but that in his area (and indeed many others), "<i>This is perfectly true. But we have no grit.</i>" <br /><br />This is true. I am told that "<i>Grit Bins are provided at a number of locations for residents to spread grit from. <br /><br />"These are replenished in the winter season but this year it is proving difficult due to the total refills required and the difficulties in getting to the bins.<br /><br />"The grit is being barrowed from the nearest access point. <br /><br />"Each bin takes a third of a ton of grit; rock salt is not used due to its propensity to go solid in about a month.</i>"<br /><br />On the basis of several reports here and Chris and my experience on Queens Road last night, I would say that some bins do have a solid lump of rock salt in them.<br /><br />We need better mechanisms of filling and replenishing. We need better mechanisms of reporting empty bins. (people are already using fixmystreet.com)<br /><br />We also need to review sites. I understand that some bins do appear to have been stolen! <br /><br />The interactive map of grit bins needs updating. Another job once current crisis is resolved.Jon Rogershttp://www.bristol-libdems.org.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-62785820181915117492010-01-08T20:32:08.807+00:002010-01-08T20:32:08.807+00:00Harry T "What we live in fear of is the media...Harry T "What we live in fear of is the media myth of litigation. We do not live in fear of health and safety law, which is largely if not entirely beneficial."<br /><br />Yes, I accept that I made that common error of confusing fear of litigation with health and safety. <br /><br />"Do you want to return us to a victorian society where the majority of the population live in fear of injury?"<br /><br />Isn't it the case that cyclists generally live in fear of injury? If you ask people why they don't cycle they will usually cite fear of injury. So we already have that situation.<br /><br />Harry, if someone poored hot water on a path to melt the snow and the water subsequently froze to produce a sheet of ice, would they not have (inadvertently) created a greater hazard than had previously existed and wouldn't they then be liable for consequent damages? <br /><br />Obviously if someone completely clears snow and ice from a path and returns the path to its normal state they cannot be liable for any damages arising from the normal state of the path, but if they partly clear a path and in so doing leave the path in an arguably more dangerous condition would they not then be liable?<br /><br />Finally you quoted the Highway Act before as saying "a Highway Authority is under a duty to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that safe passage along a highway is not endangered by snow or ice". Wouldn't the Council argue that they were doing all that is "reasonably practical"?Chris Hutthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532451004057748734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-88498859930821099462010-01-08T20:22:51.469+00:002010-01-08T20:22:51.469+00:00Dan Martin suggests that "Bristol City Counci...Dan Martin suggests that "<i>Bristol City Council should be doing so much more.</i>" <br /><br />It is a remarkably complex area. I have had several officer briefings and there are no "quick fixes" and with grit running low nationally, I guess things may get worse.<br /><br />For example officers report that "<i>In a normal season 700t of Rock Salt is used. Last winter 1400t were used, this winter we have just [8th Jan] passed the 1400t mark in Bristol</i>"<br /><br />More details on http://bit.ly/5hgwAz<br /><br />There is a possibility, with climate change, that these harsher winters may become the norm for Bristol, and we do need to think again about how we might improve services.<br /><br />JonJon Rogershttp://www.bristol-libdems.org.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-67341314190961575292010-01-08T20:04:41.226+00:002010-01-08T20:04:41.226+00:00Thanks for all the comments!
The advice I have ha...Thanks for all the comments!<br /><br />The advice I have had on council legal liability is "<i>to keep Highways free from snow and ice within the constraints of resources.<br /><br />"Nationally it is accepted that having resources to deal with main roads and bus routes is acceptable.</i>"<br /><br />The key phrase in HarryT's comment above on the Highways Act is therefore "<i>so far as is reasonably practicable</i>"Jon Rogershttp://www.bristol-libdems.org.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-83149954460584496852010-01-08T15:54:40.330+00:002010-01-08T15:54:40.330+00:00Anonymous
You are also wrong.
Council workers ar...Anonymous<br /><br />You are also wrong.<br /><br />Council workers are under a statutory obligation to clear snow and ice. Its called the Highways Act 1980.<br /><br />Anyone who tells you it is against the law is either malicious or ignorant.<br /><br />Why do so many of you wish to spread this nonsense.harryTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-29098624805154146572010-01-08T15:52:22.971+00:002010-01-08T15:52:22.971+00:00MJ Ray and Chris
You are entirely 100% wrong. Wha...MJ Ray and Chris<br /><br />You are entirely 100% wrong. What we live in fear of is the media myth of litigation. We do not live in fear of health and safety law, which is largely if not entirely beneficial. Do you want to return us to a victorian society where the majority of the population live in fear on injury ?<br /><br />The statements that clearing ice and snow from paving may render someone liable is a myth - being pushed opportunisticly by politicians. It is also pushed by insurance companies to (a) increase sales of insurance and (b) to bring pressue to bear to reduce claims.<br /><br /><br />There is no law which might be breached by the public clearing snow.<br /><br />There is no law for Harriet Harman to change. She cannot refuse to change something which does not exist.<br /><br />There is no case where anyone has even sought to argue it.<br /><br />Myth myth myth myth myth.<br /><br />Now stop spreading myths and get back to spreading gritharryTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-68681457511202079822010-01-08T15:33:17.229+00:002010-01-08T15:33:17.229+00:00The council's gardeners used to grit paths, bu...The council's gardeners used to grit paths, but now they are told the litigation threat means it can't be done.<br /><br />Of course when it snows they can't do anything much else anyway, why haven't they been sent out to clear strategic paths? Rather than paid to do nothing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-225087846795766487.post-24924992043525594602010-01-08T15:14:28.950+00:002010-01-08T15:14:28.950+00:00Me again. Apparently (I have been advised) on Wedn...Me again. Apparently (I have been advised) on Wednesday Radio Brizzle was advising people not to clear their pavements for fear of litigation. While I have long felt (in a deeply caring sort of way) that Radio Brizzle is the place where brain cells go to die, perhaps it's time someone Had A Word with 'em....Dru Marlandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03697874363783821382noreply@blogger.com